Musicians Robert Jones, Marion Hayden, and Pamela Wise discuss their respective projects "Detroit: 20 Minutes Apart," "Highland Park: City of Ogun," and "Matrix X Detroit," and the power of music to speak to the changing landscape of Detroit while elevating Black voices. The Living X podcast is hosted by Ryan Myers-Johnson, executive director of Sidewalk Detroit, and edited/mixed by Wayne Ramocan of Red Carpet Lounge. This episode features music by Pamela Wise. The Living X podcast is a product of rootoftwo and made possible with support from The Kresge Foundation.
This episode was recorded remotely during the COVID-19 pandemic.
About "Detroit: 20 Minutes Apart"
Detroit: Twenty Minutes Apart is a stage presentation that explores the neighborhood, family, and musical experiences of two musicians that grew up in very different neighborhoods, 20 minutes apart. One grew up in Detroit and the other in Plymouth, but they found commonality in art and music, forging a 30-year friendship.
The program includes both popular and original songs that shaped their experiences growing up in Detroit with stories woven throughout. Archival photos and film join with personal family photos to chronicle the gentrification of one neighborhood and the near-destruction of the other.
About Robert Jones
Robert B. Jones Sr. is a singer, multi-instrumentalist, and visual artist celebrating the history, humor, and power of American roots Roots music. He has been featured at blues and folk venues and festivals in the US, Canada, and Europe. Robert is also a nationally recognized storyteller and published writer, contributing to essay collections and appearing at the National Storytelling Center in Jonesborough, TN. As an educator, Robert has performed his American Roots Music in Education (ARMIE) presentations for over 250,000 students over the past 30 years. He has pastored the Sweet Kingdom Missionary Baptist Church on Detroit’s East Side for 15 years. Robert is the co-founder, along with Matt Watroba, of Common Chords, a nonprofit program that builds bridges between communities using music, storytelling, and art.
About "Highland Park: City of Ogun"
Highland Park: City of Ogun is a six-part musical composition that explores how Highland Park has changed through the lives and stories of its residents. Hayden interviewed community members during the Highland Park Music Festival, gathering the memories and narratives of different generations into a digital archive. Community memory is ephemeral; as we lose people through aging and displacement, the preservation of their stories increases in importance. Highland Park: City of Ogun preserves and protects these stories at a pivotal point in history by interweaving excerpts from these narratives as lyrics, improvisational themes, and word-scapes into a new musical composition.
About Marion Hayden
Marion Hayden is one of the nation’s finest proponents of the acoustic bass. Hayden is part of Detroit’s great jazz legacy, and was mentored by trumpeter Marcus Belgrave, pianist and composer Kenn Cox, and saxophonists Wendell Harrison, Donald Walden, and Charles Gabriel. She is co-founder of the groundbreaking women-led jazz ensemble Straight Ahead. Hayden has performed with Geri Allen, Bobby McFerrin, Regina Carter, Steve Turre, and Nancy Wilson.
As an artist, Hayden works in the areas of jazz and creative improvisation, informed by the Black music traditions of gospel, blues and R&B. Her compositions are narrative driven and include work on the poet Phyllis Wheatley, the biblical book of Ruth, and a Solo Bass Score for “Eulogy for Detroit 1967” by poet Melba Joyce Boyd. She holds teaching positions at the University of Michigan, Oakland University, Michigan State University, and the Detroit Jazz Festival.
About "Matrix X Detroit"
Matrix X Detroit showcases music, spoken word and poetry, and dance to reflect the remarkable, unstoppable, and diverse Detroit community. This hour-long performance is anchored by three new original music compositions by Pamela Wise: “Adjusting to the Grid,” “New Faces and Places,” and “A Heart of Gold.” At its core, this work addresses the inequities of the current renewal and recovery taking place in Detroit.
About Pamela Wise
Pamela Wise is a jazz pianist and composer whose signature use of polyrhythmic meters traces that of her African ancestors, with a specific focus on West Africa. Pamela’s work has been showcased in collaborations with saxophonist Dave McMurray, violinist Regina Carter, saxophonist Wendell Harrison, and vocalist Naima Shamborguer. Pamela has multiple internationally recognized albums to her credit, including Kindred Spirits (2015) Pamela’s Club (2007), Negre con Leche (2002), and Songo Festividad (1994). Her compositions have twice earned her the Creative Artist Award from ArtServe Michigan. Pamela also serves as music minister at the Shrine of the Black Madonna. She is a sought-after piano teacher and is executive director of Rebirth Inc., a nonprofit jazz performing arts organization that produces live concerts and jazz education programs.
Want to know more. Visit artxdetroit.com
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INTRO (00:04):
In this episode, legends, Ryan sits down with musicians, Marion Hayden, Robert Jones, and Pamela Wise on the power of music to speak to the changing landscape of Detroit while, elevating black voices. This episode was recorded remotely during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Ryan Myers-Johnson (00:25):
All right. So I'm also nervous because you guys are like some of the most amazing artists I get to interview. So anyway, let's go. Welcome everyone, we are having conversations with some of Detroit's most amazing artists here, reflecting on their work over the past year and their work with the AXD art experience. So I am Ryan Myers Johnson. I am a native Detroiter and thorough lover of arts, and I am excited to be joined today by Robert Jones, who is a musician storyteller pastor and nationally recognized scholar of American roots music as well as Marion Hayden acoustic bassist and jazz legend. Also we will be joined today by Pamela Wise, acclaimed jazz pianist and just prolific composer and musician working here in the city of Detroit. Welcome everyone.
Ryan Myers-Johnson (01:30):
The first thing I really want to ask you is just to tell us a bit more about your practice and about how your practice is centered around Detroit, perhaps it isn't centered on Detroit, but just tell us about your experience as an artist and musician working in Detroit. Marion, may we start with you?
Marion Hayden (01:53):
Well, it's great to see everybody. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks. So good to see everyone literally see you. Yes. And thanks so much for hanging out with us today, Ryan, and we appreciate you. So yeah, I I grew up here in Detroit. It really is in my pores, right. So I live and breathe this the city. I love being here. I've loved it through its ups and its downs. I don't always take the freeway. I like to drive right through the neighborhoods and I know a bunch of them too. Right. You know what I mean? I mean, West side, East side, the whole thing, I'm all in. So so when I, and also I was nurtured in terms of playing jazz and learning the music by the great musicians that came from here or chose to live here.
Marion Hayden (02:42):
So so yeah, when I, when I have so much, pretty much everything I do is, is reflection of my experiences here, which I consider to be profound experiences of black culture and other cultures also, but certainly just very deep and personal experiences. One of my mentors is actually Pamela's husband, the great Wendell Harrison. And he's someone that I, that I've learned music from us and started learning music. I still consider myself a protege of his, and, but I, I started learning from him when I was about 14 years old. So yeah, everything, everything I do pretty much is a reflection of the experiences here. And there Detroit has so much to bring to the table. The, the folks that live here and have so many years of musical heritage, family, heritage you know, that, that, that is just a continuous source of things of concepts to be mined.
Marion Hayden (03:45):
And if you, if you really think about your experiences here, you can just mind so much, so much from that. And then there are all the great stories of the United States, the great black migration, just the great migration in general, and the industrialization of the United States, the disinvestment of urban areas the disinvestment and in our school systems, you know, the disinvestment of our youth, the mass incarceration of black folks all, you know, all the kinds of things that, that we're dealing with now, Detroit is, is it's it's, it's ground zero for all of those things, as well as the great uplift of all the, all the cultural, all the cultural foundations of African Americans is also here. And so you can get the whole thing. So, yeah, Detroit has been has been really the crucible for my, for, you know, for what I've, what I feel I am as a musician. I pretty much get it off from here.
Ryan Myers-Johnson (04:44):
Wow. You said so much just in that intro from thinking about the tight knit bonds between Detroit musicians, to just Detroit being the epicenter of so many critical movements within the United States and within the black experience. So in thinking about those close connections I would like to bring Pamela Wise into the story. You have collaborated so much with Marianne and have been a integral part of the Detroit jazz music scene for so many years. So would you tell us a bit more about your work and how you came to Detroit?
Pamela Wise (05:24):
Yeah, actually I, I grew up in, in a small mining town, Steubenville, Ohio. My, actually my dad was a jazz bassist just like Marion. So that's how I got the music book. Cause he had a jazz trio when I was a toddler, I would always sneak downstairs and listen. So my mother would always try to keep me away from it. And I'm like, this is where I want to be. You know, so my father was definitely a strong role model. But being in a small mining town and growing up there, it just it was a great place to grow up, but health, it wasn't that healthy after a while, you know, the, the pollution was so bad, there was so many people dying of cancer. And my older brother just was like, look, you need to get out of there because you know, the pollution in the air was just so bad.
Pamela Wise (06:20):
We were once considered like the, like the most polluted city in the nation. I mean, you could even see the, on the houses. And sometimes there would be like this orange haze that she could see and they would tell people not to go outside. So we kind of had to get out of that environment. My father chose to stay there up until his last days, but you know, my brother was really instrumental in getting me out of there. And so I was building my musical career, you know, I had this R and B group that I had when I was in high school, but I always wanted to be a jazz player because I was heavily influenced by my father. And then I had an older brother that was, you know, turning me on to all of these records and, you know, and then when I came to Detroit via, by the way of my brother, because he always said, if I got a good job in Detroit, I always want to move back there.
Pamela Wise (07:20):
Cause he had spent some time here when he first got out of high school. As a matter of fact, my mother was looking for when he graduated and she was like, where's your brother. And he brought this old jalopy $400 and ended up on a friend of ours doorstep who lived in Detroit. So she was like, well, you know what, he can stay there. If he wants to do that, he can, he can just stay. But in the end, after a while I came to Detroit and then I met Wendell and then Wendell introduced me to all these awesome musicians. And then I started working and, and you know, then I started working with all of these people that I had been listening to growing up, like leaning on Thomas, Eddie Harris. And sometimes I was just selling on what I was doing. I couldn't even hit the first note on the piano cause I was like, I can't believe I'm here.
Pamela Wise (08:13):
I can't believe I'm here doing this, but, but actually I've always been kind of like this community active, this kind of person. I don't like seeing people being mistreated and that also reflects in my music. I'm also like I become a voice for my community or what's going on. And that was like, my whole Art XD project was kind of based around you know, with the presentation of the Matrix x Detroit and the gentrification process that we're going through. And after that, we had a great community discussion with some housing officials and how people could possibly get help If they needed it.
Ryan Myers-Johnson (08:59):
What an amazing story, your journey. I didn't, I never knew that, that, you know, is what brought you to Detroit sort of escaping some of the environmental inequities in Steubenville. So I'm really excited to dive deeper into each of your AXD projects. But before that speaking of storytelling, I would like to introduce Robert Jones, if you could please tell us about your practice and how your work is rooted in telling stories about Detroit or the community at large.
Rev. Robert Jones (09:35):
Well, thank you, Ryan. It's good to see all of you again. Yeah, I was born and raised in Detroit. I was born in Herman Kiefer hospital and according to legend and my momma she brought me home to a kitchenette, which is like one room thing, put me in a dresser drawer. That was my crib. So my experiences I've always lived in Detroit and really can't conceive of myself living anywhere else. One of the things that was great for me growing up in Detroit as a single, you know, as a, as a child of a single parent and the only child of a single parent is that, you know, I got a chance to spend a lot of alone time. So when my grandmother brought home this record of Sonny Terry and brownie McGhee, these old blues guys, you know, country blues guys, I think I was immediately sort of attracted to the fact that this was music that you can make by yourself.
Rev. Robert Jones (10:39):
You know, you didn't need five brothers who could dance. There was no, there was no place for me in Motown, right? So the idea was that you had this music that was organic and sort of self contained and solo. And as I, you know, taught myself how to play guitar and harmonica first time on guitar and then managed to get to public radio in Detroit, I was working as a student assistant to while I was attending Wayne state and just exposed to this amazing library of blues and spirituals, African American roots music and all that kind of stuff. And it's amazing that sometimes when God gives you an opportunity, you don't recognize it for what it is, but actually I was working for educational broadcast and for about four years doing a recession, you know, during the Ford administration and had nothing to do, but to sit around and practice my guitar was playing tapes and they'd go off like every hour, every half an hour.
Rev. Robert Jones (11:49):
And I just practice practice, practice. I didn't realize then, but what it allowed me to do was to actually get paid to practice. So at the end of that the end of that period, I found myself sort of immersed with these Detroit blues greats the Butler twins and Detroit, you know, a lot of Detroit castle buggy, what you read and all those kind of guys. And I think that I kind of eased into the idea that this music and the stories were on the way out. And if we didn't preserve them, if we didn't keep playing this stuff, we didn't keep these traditions alive. Then we look back and regrettably, you know, we lose track of, so my whole, my whole thing is tied to Detroit is tied to the idea of their great of great artists that I encountered in Detroit, even though many of them did not know they were great, even though a lot of them would just, you know, be very humble and self deprecating about the music they were playing, it's still important music.
Rev. Robert Jones (13:01):
And then when you go somewhere else, then you really realize how wonderful Detroit is because that's when people start to say, Oh man, you know, you, you knew so-and-so, you know, uncle Jesse White? All these kind of, you know, all these kinds of Detroit icons who, you know, would come back to the Troy and find themselves like driving cabs, you know, running junk yards and all that kind of stuff. Right. So again, my XD thing was, was really also about that idea of trying to recognize that there are, there's a Gulf between the city and the suburbs and the folks on, in one section, they, they see the world in one way and folks in another place to see the world in another way. And it's, I think all of us here are privileged to be Bridgers as we can sort of bridge those different communities and hopefully bring about some understanding
Ryan Myers-Johnson (14:02):
For that. And thank you all for just sharing your tremendous love for Detroit and your gifts to really explore these Detroit stories. And one of the things I'm hearing from all of you, and I think you're exploring your projects is just this remarkable adaptability that Detroiters have and that artists have, and this ability to capture the spirit of the things that we're struggling with. So, you know, right now Detroit is undergoing an incredible amount of pressure. We are facing a lot of hard times and, you know, as we have, and, you know, for, for all of my life and for, you know, most of the 20th century. So how are you as artists adapting and responding to the current situation that we're in?
Marion Hayden (14:54):
Let's see, I guess I'll go. I'm not certain if I'm adapting well, to be honest I find it tired of the, the entire situation where he on traumatizing. I, I don't get up and feel good every day at all. I get up and feel like, I feel like things are, things are very different, especially for me as a bass player. A lot of what I do is very collaborative. I don't spend a lot of time playing by myself. And so now I find that I'm playing, I'm doing a lot more alone and that's very antithetical to the person that I am. I really love good collaboration. I have I have several longterm collaborative projects that are very meaningful for me, and it's been very difficult to engage in them. So finally, I think maybe, maybe just by the end of April, I kind of clicked into some sort of a little better place than I was initially.
Marion Hayden (15:55):
And so I feel like we're in a place now where as, as musicians, there's kind of a couple of things. One of the things is I think that whatever our ability to have been able to capture and document what we've done is hugely important now. And to the extent that, you know, sometimes I've had projects that have been, well-documented some barely documented some that documented those things. I've really had a chance to go through and, and just make an assessment of during this time. And see what level of documentation did I have? Did I have a full video to have a promotional video to at least have some good audio, hopefully done at least have some still photos and perhaps some some other audio. So those are kinds of things that I'm thinking of. Then recently I've finally crossed the bridge to think about what are our possibilities for collaboration and still to still be able to be in a collaborative process under the circumstances I can, I guess, from, you know, every week to week, I'm kind of hoping that, you know, that, that maybe this things will clear up a little better, but it doesn't seem to be that way.
Marion Hayden (17:04):
And then just as a functioning professional musician, I've started to get cancellations of my performance schedule deeper and deeper into the summer. So so now I'm thinking that as an artist, you know, we, as artists are going to have to, you know, rethink how are we delivering things, perhaps the collaborations will have to be smaller. Maybe you know, they'll have to be in a different certainly in different, different venues. We definitely are going to have to get much more savvy about being able to just over things, visa, visa, VI, video and other kinds of other kinds of streaming efforts, those things. So long, long story short. Yeah. It's been a struggle for me, just, you know, a personal struggle to try to try to switch my mind into the to the new normal.
Ryan Myers-Johnson (17:53):
Yeah, I hear that. Would anyone else like to jump in musicians are being hit in a very specific sort of way because artists are catalysts for bringing people together and for gathering. And now that we have to rethink what it means to gather, and it's sort of adapt to not only closure of, you know, certain venues to, to, to do your work, but also to the grief that comes with separation, whether it be temporary or permanent separations that are coming from this pandemic. So Pam Robert, would you like to jump in, how are you adapting? How are you dealing with the current pandemic situation,
Pamela Wise (18:40):
I've been practicing a lot, practicing a whole lot. The loss of income, I think is the most, one of the most thumb, harder things to deal with is the uncertainty of things. You know, how are we going to, you know, how are we going to eat next month? How are we going to make it? And then the political climate of, of why all of this happened, I'm certainly going to be writing a sweep out that, you know, because it makes me angry that, you know, the warnings were out there, they weren't heated. And you know, now we're in this situation, you know, the governors are of each state are just kind of left to fend for themselves. And that greatly affected me. So, you know, I actually felt like getting a million people was like, man, we should all be storming the white house right now.
Pamela Wise (19:35):
But I've been able to still teach via FaceTime and zoom and, you know, things like that. I've been still doing my workout, trying to stay healthy because I'm a gym rat and a lot of the gyms are closed, but we do have instructors that have moved their classes online, which is good emotionally it's it's affected me a whole lot. And actually one goal was diagnosed with COVID-19, but he was asymptomatic. His symptoms weren't that bad. And at 77 years old, that was kind of weighing heavy on me because I didn't know if he was going to get worse or, you know, what was going to happen after that. But you know, his doctor was looking at him and when he, and she said, had him come in and pick up prescription right away, you know, for Z pack. So it wouldn't get any worse. And, you know, fortunately, you know, he fully recovered and he was still practicing. And, you know, he just wasn't that sick though, that was fortunate. But, you know, it's just the incoming hours, just like trying to put things together. You know, a lot of things got canceled,
Pamela Wise (20:48):
But you know, when you're a musician, he practiced a lot. You compose, you get creative, you know, just like Maryann was saying, and he started going through your stuff and posting a lot of stuff on Facebook. And, you know, that kind of keeps me calmed down, still in touch with I'm a regular musician at my church. So that was kind of hurt. I'm still able to do kind of stuff for them online streaming, you know, maybe play a little background music and posted or whatever, so muddling through, but trouble don't last always. I think we'll get,
Ryan Myers-Johnson (21:24):
It's a really uplifting kind of note to end on. And as I, as I think about jazz and not, not that I'm a jazz historian, but so much of the great jazz music has come out of these periods of hardship and tumultuous times for America and for black people in particular. So I'm, I'm really excited to hear the music that's going to come out of this from you all and from Detroit artists, as we kind of weather this,
Ryan Myers-Johnson (22:04):
Robert, I'd like to kind of talk to you about one of the things that I've, that I, that we've all I think been noticing is the different impact that this pandemic has had on Detroiters versus the surrounding suburbs in the rest of the state and your AXD piece in particular, 20 minutes apart. Really explore sort of a history of I guess difference, but, but similarities as well between yourself and another musician friend. Would you give us a snapshot of what that piece is about and the type of work that you're exploring with this project?
Rev. Robert Jones (22:45):
Yeah. Detroit 20 minutes apart really is, is sort of exploring the fact that my best friend and my musical partner is a kid who though was born in Detroit, was raised. And the fact that we are in many ways, different people, I go to church every Sunday. I don't think Matt, if you went inside, the church might explode. I don't know his father's sold used cars. My mother was on welfare up until she got a job when I was about 12 years old. She was on ABC. So we had a really different experience growing up in Metro Detroit. And the fact that we have a friendship that has lasted more than 30 years, or sort of prompted a question is like, what are the things that separate us if we have this goal where we live 20 minutes apart, but we may as well be from two different countries experientially, what kind of things separate us and what kind of things brings together and allow us to have some form of communication.
Rev. Robert Jones (24:01):
And so one of the things that we see is it points immediately to the idea of privilege. The reason, you know, as I was, I don't always agree with Reverend Wendell Anthony, but I definitely agree with him that amazingly, you had a bunch of folks who were protesting, governor witness stay at home order and they go to Lansing with no masks, no distancing and armed and walked into the state Capitol and get pictures taken with the Michigan state police. Right. I can only imagine if that had been a group of African Americans going up to the state Capitol, not practicing social distancing, armed, walking up to the Capitol. You've been a shot 17 times before you got on the front step. So what's going on is there is a different way that you are dealt with and that you are perceived even in the midst of this pandemic, they just sort of show some things it's like privilege for the first time. A major part of our population is saying, nobody can tell me what to do. I mean, after all I am, you know, I am of the privilege, no one has ever told me what to do. No one has ever placed restrictions on me. So therefore they, you know, some people seemingly feel that it's their right to not only die, but to make other people sick, to protect quote unquote Liberty. That's, that's an interesting saying that this COVID has brought about is really brought to the forefront a lot of underlying issues.
Ryan Myers-Johnson (25:50):
Hmm. Yeah. There's the, you said you did so much in, well, we could probably talk for a long time on that. Just the privilege that manifests itself within our Metro Detroit area, as well as the different ways that African American people need to navigate public space and personal freedoms right now. So I want to also just ask 'em to bring Pam and Maryann into the conversation because you both are dealing with with your AXD works telling the stories of people in your neighborhood and also reflecting on some of the changes that Detroit has seen over time whether it be economic or just the different changing, ethnic landscape of our city.
Pamela Wise (26:45):
Well, I live in the North end, Marion she's in Highland park and you know, it's interesting to see all the building and development that's going on in like Midtown and the North end. And I guess they're going to be coming to Highland park soon. Just, you know, I think is just an, a plan. But also I see a lot of building going on in my neighborhood. You're building all these new houses and, but like right next to all of this building is there is a lady she stays in a vacant garage, you know, she's a real nice person. And you know, she's clean and everything. I've never been as hot as the garage though, but you know, I'm also wondering what is going to happen to her, you know, are they going to be able, is she going to be able to find a space?
Pamela Wise (27:41):
Is, you know, is this something that she's going to have to seek out herself or is, you know, there's different people in a neighborhood that know her, that's building these new houses or renovating them. And I'm wondering if anybody has said anything to her, look, we have the good place for you. You're a nice person. You know, they see her all the time. She speaks to everybody. She takes care of the neighborhood cats and things like that, you know, and she's a real sweetheart. So I'm wondering if she's, there's going to be a space for her. You know, these are the kinds of things that I'm concerned about because a lot of people are just being pushed out, you know, of their business, their homes. It's like, if you're not paying attention, you know, you're not going to be a part of this development. I mean, we barely are, you know, it just really hurts, you know, to see people who aren't getting a fair share.
Ryan Myers-Johnson (28:43):
Hmm. How do you weave those types of stories into your art practice?
Pamela Wise (28:47):
Yes. Well, when I did my Art XD project it was really multidisciplinary. I mean, we have poetry, we had dance, there were three scenes that Bill Harris wrote scripts for. So we had act, people acting out different scenes of gentrification people who were displaced and, or people that had people that had three jobs, but couldn't afford a permanent place to live people, sneaking kind of sneaking in a neighborhood reclaiming property that had been vacant for years and had been an eyesore, but, but people have been sitting on this property waiting for this day to come. So they come back in and you know, one of the scenes where, well, I'm reclaiming this building, that my grandfather left our family. And even though you knew the bank building was vacant and it was a nice floor. Now we're coming back to reclaim it. We're changing it into this new health place. Yes, I have protection in a neighborhood. Why don't you have protection? Well, you got to buy a membership for $250 a month, you know, to be a part of this neighborhood development association. So when you click on this button, you need help. You know, people will come right away. The police will be here, you know, those kinds of situations. And just like Robert was saying, it's even getting less than 20 minutes. Now. It might even only be five,
Ryan Myers-Johnson (30:30):
What an amazing and important record that you're creating of what's happening in our time. And I think that it's just yeah, I, I want to say something else besides amazing. I can't think of the word, but it's critically important that artists and Detroiters are capturing these stories in the work so that, you know, when we look back on it, we can recognize what has happened. Marianne, please let us know. I know that storytelling and capturing the history of your community is a big part of your work as well.
Marion Hayden (31:02):
It was. Thank you. Yeah, I'd like to say my husband and I live in Highland park, although I'll say I don't consider myself, we don't consider ourselves native Highland parkers because they are very prideful and you must be born into this neighborhood to be here, to be a Navy native, have a park or so. So we respect them for that. So we, but we are, we have been residents here for a number of years and we raised a family here. We have, we have raised, we have raised our two boys here who are you know we have a, a one who was a a 30 year old and a one that just turned 24 yesterday. So we, so we, we raised our children here in Highland park and how I decided to do my my XD project, which I called Highland park city of Oak was the, I went directly to the people here and to let folks speak in the most directly way and actually interviewed them about their experiences living here.
Marion Hayden (32:04):
And I just can't even, I can't, it's hard to describe how just how interesting it was enlightening. They really opened their hearts and talked about so many things that they love about the city. So when you drive down Woodward Avenue and you see this little part of this part of what would Ave, a lot of times, people don't even realize they're driving through another city, which is Highland park, which starts, starts starts right. Right about right about it, a web on the Detroit side, and then goes off, goes all the way up to McNichols. They don't really realize they're seeing another city that had a whole other history. And so I went to people and I had a questionnaire for questions, and I asked them things about their experiences here and there. The questions were things like what I asked them, you know, first, how long have you lived here?
Marion Hayden (33:02):
What was your, what, what was it that you liked the most about living here in Highland park? What you liked the least about living here in Highland park. And then I asked them to give me an aspirational statement about, of things. Some does anything, what they wanted, what they wanted to see for the city, how they felt about the city, any kind of, of any three or four words that they, that they, that they've felt described their experiences here. And people were just so generous with their time. And I was able to just get just some overall overall I took maybe I wanted to get a lot more of, it was, it was a little harder. The whole thing was a little harder than I thought, but about 35, but I got about 35 respondents and just a, a rich, a rich source of information about their experiences there.
Marion Hayden (33:52):
And and what was really great is I had a chance to talk with people who would live there. Like I interviewed people who are younger folks, like maybe 16 or 15 year olds who have been there since who were born into the city. And then I also and I also interviewed people who had lived, who had lived, or had an association with the city since the 1950s. So, you know, and they 53 early fifties or late 1940s even. So this was a long history of people being associated with here with the city. And man, they really, they just laid it all out. They just laid out so many interesting stories of the, the whole, they laid out the whole story of gentrification in this area. They talked about people, they, you know, Muslim talked about how diverse the community was at one time, how beautiful the community was.
Marion Hayden (34:46):
How many, just, how many great community assets, the libraries, the schools, the parks, the just the the you know, the, the gardens, the, just the entire, you know, the way that people were able to live, the walkability of the community, all the kinds of things that we're trying to somehow or another add back in that were already extant for so many years here now. And so, and then they talked about, they talked about disinvestment. They talked about when the, when the factories left and how things just began to just little by little crumble. And you know, and they talked about, you know, they talked about crime and blight and, you know, immuno a lot of times we assume that because people live in, in a place that's, that has black, that they are happy with that. No one was happy with that.
Marion Hayden (35:33):
Everyone, anyone that remembers anything about the city was really disappointed, but of course people that live there are powerless oftentimes to do these kinds of these, a lot of times, times these are municipal functions and then you miss a pal D crumbled. So and as a matter of fact, one of the, one of the one of the interviews was with my, I also interviewed everyone in my household because they live here. And my oldest son said that when he went to when he went to college, one of his roommates told him that Highland park was on the anarchic watch list because they didn't have any, they didn't have any, any fire department, any police department and there's, and there's really nobody running the place. So apparently the folks were making, this was, the city was gonna fall into anarchy.
Marion Hayden (36:23):
So so it was so, so when I, by the time I captured out these that became, that became the the, the the intellectual fighter for me to an and intellectual fodder and emotional fodder for me to compose. So I really tried to weave these things together into the home, into the whole composition. And when that, when we, we did the, when we did the the performance in somewhere in there, I actually played the interviews and we, the interviews with the music. And then on top of that, I had, I had a really wonderful poet that worked with us. So she was able to also encapsulate things in a whole different way and hurt the way that she's really able to, to use words and pay visual stories. And so people, people really were, and then of course, a lot of the interviewees attended it, so that even made it more meaningful.
Marion Hayden (37:20):
We just had, there were just so many moments that were that were just just poignant and very personal for folks. And it was, it was, it was it was unpleasure to be able to do that and try to be the voice of this community to some, to whatever extent one can and try to try to add, and also not just have the whole thing, be about the, you know, the difficulties and challenges to, for it, to actually in many ways, be a love note to a community because that's the way ultimately people felt they loved this community. So, so the, the, the piece was presented with tried to with honesty, but also with love. Cause there was just a lot of love going on here.
Ryan Myers-Johnson (38:04):
Wow. Each of you, each of your projects I think are embodying sort of a love note to our history, our resilience, and to everything that we have faced, you know, here as Detroiters. So thank you so much for your work. Thank you so much for recording these critical narratives and creating a record of what the people of Detroit are, are dealing with and struggling with and rising above. So with that, we're
Ryan Myers-Johnson (38:36):
Going to say goodbye to our audience. This is Ryan Johnson. I'm from Detroit, Michigan.
Pamela Wise (38:42):
I'm Pamela Wise I'm right here in the Northend in Detroit. See y'all later.
Marion Hayden (38:51):
This is Marion Hayden and I'm recording from Highland park, Michigan.
Rev. Robert Jones (39:04):
I'm Reverend Robert Jones and I'm recording from Detroit, Michigan in Rosedale Park.
OUTRO (39:05):
AXD Living X podcast is a production of rootoftwo and made possible with support from the Kresge foundation mixed and edited by Red Carpet Lounge. Music for the series it's by Pamela Wise. To find out more about the projects visit artxdetroit.com and download the companion Living X catalog featuring all 22 commissioned AXD works.